Punk Rock Articles | Cubs vs sox

Cub Fans - Sox Fans

I belong to a news email group made up of most scenesters from the Carbondale scene circa 1984-present. We give each other shit and send each other BS back and forth, news articles, pics of our offspring, rock star jpg's, etc. Some of it ends up on this site and others is just put down the memory hole…

Well the other day a good friend of mine, even though he is a sox fan, we are still friends. Now sox fans do not like Cub fans, and Cub fans primarily don't give a shit about the sox or their fans. But we still get along. We are from Chicago. But the other day I get this in my in-basket to the group.

The Sox now have drawn over 450,000 more fans this year than through the same number of games in 2005. And, with last night's game, the Sox have drawn 25,840 more fans this year than the Cubs.

So much for the "The Cubs will always outdraw the Sox" argument.

Mike

Now, after reading that you would have thought that it came from someone say ohhh, in his early pre-pubescence or maybe junior high if they were brain damaged.

No. It came from a 41 year old man. I shit you not. Now this is a response to something I wrote back last summer of 2005 when the sox were in first place and heading for the playoffs. I quipped that even though they are in first place the Cubs are still outdrawing them. Now sox fans are real sensitive about being the second favorite baseball team in a two-team town. It has caused them to have severe inferiority complexes, for sure. I mean I wrote that last year and he had it bottled up, pent up for over a year. Waiting for the right moment.

Finally he says "Vindication is mine!" He reads in the paper that they have drawn 25,840 more fans this year than the Cubs. Notice the smarmy assed out of context quip he associated to me. I would not use a word like "always" especially with the Cubs. Come on. As a Cub fan I expect the records of futility to pile up. It is a given.

Now of course he is a sox fan, so premature ejaculation is common in their ranks. So he just looks at the total attendance for the year and does not bother to look at total home games played… you see where I am going. He didn't, or he didn't want to, it is hard to tell with their kind. So I respond back:

The sox have now played 61 home games to the cubs 56. I would do the math for you about averages and such but I wouldn't want to take out the air from your balloon. Plus I wouldn't want to talk over your head.

I was a little snide myself, I agree. But I thought that would be the end of it, but nooooo. I mean logic with numbers and sox fans, come on. They don't mix well….

So I thought that would be the end of it and they would wait till the end of the season to gloat, mind you, PJ's are a common amongst them and shooting their wads early is par for the course. SO this is the response I get to my numbers game ratio shutdown.

Interesting. The Sox may be in second place right now but I believe that the Cubs are in fifth place in a six team division. In fact, only two teams in the American League have worse records than the Cubs.

"Interesting." That is his take on my math. Interesting.

Yes it is and then he ignores reality and goes into some rant about standings, in another division, in another league, totally ignoring his lame ass jab which is what started all this to begin with.

I thought we were talking about attendance?

So another good friend chimes in to come to his comrade's defense since he has clearly needs help here since Tyke got himself into a pickle with his mouth. The real funny thing is that later on they claim I changed the subject criteria… I know, reality catch it.

So I send this joke I have been saying to sox fans for a while now…

What do you do with white sox at the end of the season?

You fold them up and put them in your chicks panties drawer...

Tyke's response was:

Really? I don't know of anyone who does that. You must be the only one.

Pretty good, but he is obviously in denial. Real men's sox aren't white, only if they are new and still in the package. And I am not a sox fan. The typical "I know you are but what am I" type defenses.

Now Patrick of MSIG is board at work and he like to stir the shit up especially with me in this news group, so he starts going on about me being "insane", "I am always right", "I change the criteria", blah, blah, blah…

OK, I am insane, I am a Cub fan remember. But as the previous emails prove, I changed nothing. Now this is going back to something I said last year, mind you. Last fucking year. Of all the dumb ass things I have said in my life they remember this one. The truth must really hurt. I didn't know I was hurting poor, poor sox fans feeling by pointing out the truth.

No Patrick is stirring the pot real good now. He writes back:

Yeah Tyke! How DARE you attempt to question Mikey's authority!

I reply:

NO, not authority, just opinions that are factually based on accurate use of data and statistics... and not based on some suppressed sense of inferiority complex based on ones affiliation and loyalty to a team of suxness.

No notice my use of the word "suxness" It was an intentional play on word, combining

sox + sucks + ness = suxness

So Slim starts chiming in with his own brand of projection:

I distinctly remember a very bitter e-mail from you last year in which you wrote something to the effect, "they're (the Sox) going to win it, I ust know it" (not an exact quote). This was after either the Sox won the division or after they beat Boston in the first round of the payoffs.

Notice the use of the word "Bitter", of course I have nothing to be "bitter" about. I am not the one jealous of the Cubs popularity, so in a sense it is another example of projection. Also note that he states that I claimed the sox were "going to win it", does he even know what he is writing? By pointing out these intricacies I am somehow "bitter" to sox fans. Oh well par for the course I guess…

I do find it sad that they project "I am bitter", but not the sox fans that had my comment from over a year ago still having them very angry that they would start this all over again, a year later. I'm the bitter one? You just keep thinking that.

I did mention that I thought the sox would choke last year (which was probably one of the sore spots the sox fans remember), and for a while it did look like they were, but they righted the ship and sailed through the playoffs with the perfect amount of luck on their side to pull off two sweeps to take it all. Now, if the Cubs won the World Series, you would never hear me complain again, most Cub fans would die happy for even the chance of us making it to the big games. Not sox fans. You think the chip on their shoulder would fill in, that they would be happy that their team finally won the world series..

No. Insecurity knows no bounds.

I sent out a mea culpa so to speak to put this to an end, but they wouldn't let it go. Now mind you this is after they were shot down for gloating about attendance records that they were wrong about. Of course Tyke only found the facts interesting….

No, I thought the Sox would choke last year, but I was wrong... so once again, you are wrong..... bitch.

Notice I admit I was wrong, but that was not good enough. NO, of course not. Slim just has to respond to my "Bitch" comment with:

No Mr. Snot I am not wrong. And I like everyone else on the list could have predicted your response. Thanks for the morning laugh.

Slim

He's claiming something he can't prove, didn't prove and will never prove. Claiming that "everyone predicted" is a laugh in itself, but to claim he got his morning "laugh", either he was looking in the mirror or at his claims or in his pants not quite sure which it was. So it goes on and on like this, through several more email exchanges. Mind you these are from educated adults with college degrees, and some even with children.

You will respond to it by ignoring any factual argument I offer and then twisting what both of us have written to completely change/miss the point and declare yourself right, vindicated and unquestionably the victor. Oh yeah, and probably call me a derogatory name. That's the pattern I see. Have a nice day.

Slim

Of course I didn't call him a "bitch". All the other crap is mere projection. Cry baby sox fans, you gotta love them. Hilarious hours of entertainment at you fingertips at any newsgroup, just call them fair weather fans and they will go out of their way to prove you correct. What follows was total attempt to grab at whatever straws there may be left to salvage their reputations as sox fans…

Mikey,

I have a question for you and this is not to be taken as a put down of you or the Cubs. Do you think this blind loyalty by most Cub fans leads to the Tribune Company not giving a shit about what kind of team they put on the field? There seems to be no incentive at all for the owners to spend the money to come up with a winner. Would you as a businessperson bother to improve your product if you consistently sold all of it no matter the quality. I do notice a few Cub fans getting pissed this year. I personally think that's what it will take for the Trib to put productive money into this team. Fans standing up and saying Fuck You, I'm not paying for bad baseball. I feel this is at least partially true when it comes to the Sox. White Sox fans will not pay for bad baseball. You are correct, if the Pale Hose start losing and playing bad, fans will stop coming. That seems like simple economics to me. All I've seen recently from the Cub owners is increased seating in a stadium that has some structural problems, an organization who scalps their own tickets and a sub par team on the field. What are your thoughts?

Slim

Living a lie? Sox fans are the ones, as Jim noted, that let management and ownership that they're not going to tolerate a crappy team by not buying tickets, not attending games, not buying merchandise, etc. The strike in 1994 was the start of this as the Sox probably would have gone to the ALCS, if not the World Series, that year, and they let the team know they were pissed off by not returning in the throngs they had been in the previous years. Look up the attendance records prior to '94 and tell me if I'm wrong. I haven't looked at them, but I'd guess it's correct.

Tyke

This is excellent. Your response is pretty much what I predicted. Name calling (paragraph 4). Twisting my words (paragraph 2, my statements had nothing to do with the Sox). And, oh jeezus, I'd say you nailed your own technique right on the head! I mean projection!? You're the best. Damn! I forgot to mention denial (paragraph 1) Oh well.

From memory, since I delete past e-mails. As an example, there was a series of e-mail, started with you and Mike, if I recall correctly, where you made the statement that the Sox had not outdrawn the Cubs since the '50's. I wrote back that was not the case. The Sox had outdrawn the Cubs 4 times in I believe the last 20-25 years. 2 of which were in the early to mid nineties. You ignored what facts I presented, did not respond to a single one and twisted my argument around to accuse me of bragging the Sox out drawing the Cubs 4 times in 20 some years and what an idiot I was to think that was worth bragging about (Which of course I would have been). When in fact, I was just pointing out that you were wrong in your statements.

Like I said at the time, I don't care if the Cubs out draw the Sox. I'm not obsessed with the Cubs or their popularity. I just don't care.

Mikey, I'm glad you're my friend, but your debating/arguing technique is awful.

Slim

"Blind loyalty", "Bad Baseball", canned criticism that only makes sense to sox fans… They always have the same ones, "no one is there to watch the game", "world biggest bar", "Fag Bar Park", "Cub fans are to stupid", "World biggest gay bar", "we support bad teams" "Stadium is falling apart", yadda, yadda… The stadium is falling apart? What do you expect the park is over 80 years old. It is one of the oldest, most cherished historic parks of them all. I know for a fact that no one looks that great after eighty…

We hear these excuses and accusations all the time. I like this line,

"I haven't looked at them, but I'd guess it's correct."

I guess I am correct, see wishful thinking… again. He makes a moot point of the strike affecting attendance but doesn't make the connection of the fair weather status of his claims. I mean they will even guess they are right then actually go out and not do the math. I had to post them the attendance records to prove that the Cubs have been outdrawing them for the last 15 years in a row. And they go on to prove their fair weather status by not showing up for 15 years. I also like the assumption of going to the World Series in 1994 if it wasn't for that damn strike. You gotta love them when they are mad.

I also like the "I don't care" comment, classic sign of denial. You didn't care but you bottled up my comments up for a year???

I like to live a lie, I am a sox fan….

Then Tykes wife come to his "defense" with this diatribe…

Mikey, you fucking dumbass, your post just proved the point that Mike was making. By the way, the point he was making WAS NOT A DRAW OR OUTDRAW COMPARISON WITH THE CUBS. If you had bothered to actually read what he said, which was:

Living a lie? Sox fans are the ones, as Jim noted, that let management and ownership that they're not going to tolerate a crappy team by not buying tickets, not attending games, not buying merchandise, etc. The strike in 1994 was the start of this as the Sox probably would have gone to the ALCS, if not the World Series, that year, and they let the team know they were pissed off by not returning in the throngs they had been in the previous years. Look up the attendance records prior to '94 and tell me if I'm wrong. I haven't looked at them, but I'd guess it's correct.

....you would see that he was stating that Sox fans are more likely to demonstrate their displeasure with a loser team by not attending games. He stated as evidence the attendance records from pre and post '94 strike.

So, you posted the attendance records, which as Mike predicted, showed a significant drop after the '94 strike.

Try reading for comprehension next time Mikey.

And then this one.

That line about you shitting on people is just perfect Mikey, since your argument style is basically a chimp throwing shit from his cage.

All I really get out of your emails is "blah blah blah....Cubs Rule!....blah blah blah......girls bad! Boys Good!.....blah blah blah.....girls wear panties....panties bad! boys good!.....blah blah blah....bitches.....blah, blah, blah.....girls get periods.....periods bad, boys good!....etc., etc., etc.

Seriously Mikey, for someone who claims to be so anti-Republican, you sure do have the right-wing gender role talking points down. You and Phyllis Schlafly should get together and have a coffee klatch about how women should have never gotten the right to vote.

Now notice here there are tons of assumptions. The sox regularly play over 500 for the season, and are competitive year in and year out. Now if what they believe is true here in this last post, the attendance records do not back up their beliefs. A winning team is not good enough for them. They have to WIN the World Series every year…. Yes, just being competitive and playing over 500 baseball is not good enough. Having superstars on their team is not good enough. NO! You must win ALL the Time. 162-0 is the ideal season for them. 161 and one is unacceptable.

I hate to see these guys crushed after this season….

I am not even going to address the sexist claims. Where did that come from? Oh, wait a minute it is sox fans. I forgot.

We had one more exchange with Slim that I will just combine his to mine to speed this up… the comments after the brackets are mine…

You will respond to it by ignoring any factual argument I offer
>>> I like how you claim to be factual, but used paraphrased opinions in your original statement. Nor do you refer to a factual arguement as an example, just claiming it is factual and having the word "fact" in your statement does not make it so... what have you been watching fox news again...?

and then twisting what both of us have written to completely change/miss the point
>>> and your example is???? Where is it? Ohh it is made up, I forgot.

and declare yourself right,
>>>> never declared, just proven with facts and observations based on proper statisitcs and data.

vindicated and unquestionably the victor.
>>> once gain made up. why do you live a lie so much. I guess it is better than being honest with yourself and confronting reality.

Oh yeah, and probably call me a derogatory name.
>>> Haven't called you a name.... yet. I was thinking "simpleton" right now, but that would insult the simpletons of society...

That's the pattern I see.
>>>> The only pattern so far is sox fans can't handle the truth, and would rather live a lie than reality.

Have a nice day.

>>> I will, I don't live a lie...

Which brings me to my conclusion of why sox fans are so bitter. They only have the game. Win at all costs. Go team Go! Losing is not accepted, when you live vicariously through a sports team and a game. A fucking ball game. A game played by adult men in tight uniforms, paid ungodly sums of money to entertain us with a game. A stick and a ball played on a diamond. Silly, isn't it?

You see at Comisky Park, I refuse to call it what it is now called, appropriately called the "cell" like prison cell… get it? At a sox game you get just that. A game. Oh, and maybe some fireworks. But they don't see it as a game, though. It is to them life at all costs. They cannot understand why we are Cub fans, when we loose all the time.

Wrigley Field and the Cubs are an experience. Yes, the Cubs have put on some exciting times in the last 100 years, but still no World Series. But yet we show up. We show up for one of the best parks in the league. In one of Chicago's greatest neighborhoods, called Lakeview. It is one of the most culturally diverse hoods in Chicago. We have Blueman Group, independent theater, Cabaret Metro, the rock emporium of the North Side, Cubby Bear, where I saw Husker Du play back in 1985 along with Articles of Faith's last show in America. We have bars and pubs and restaurants that stretch all the way down Clark Street to the Lincoln Park neighborhood. We have Goose Island Brew Pub serving up some of the best beer brewed in Chicago. We have atmosphere, we have culture, we have art houses and galleries, coffee shops, comic book stores, The Alley clothing store, etc. Imagine this, Punks and Jocks hanging out together in the same area getting along. Well, somewhat, getting along.

When we leave a game, it still party time. When you leave Comisky its wait in line to get to your car in the parking lots that surround the park, then wait in line to get out of the parking lots, then wait in line to get on the highway and go back to the suburbs. Yawn.

That is what they don't get. The Cubs are an experience. Yeah, the Cubs stink this year, but I tell you, if the sox went 5-17 in May like the Cubs did and were out of the playoff race, they would be lucky to draw 1 million fair weather fans.

Oh but wait there is more! What do I get in my in-basket from Tyke the day after all this?

I get his….

Oh dude, let it go….

Maybe they should practice what they preach. BTW, the Cubs outdrew the sox by 150,000 with one less home game this year.

MS, started August 2006, updated October 31, 2006, posted December 3.

The names have been changed to protect the sox fans, from their own embarrassment.